The following is a conversation copied and lightly edited from Nextdoor.com, regarding the Dixie Flag and a neighbor who has for many years run around Grant Park carrying a symbol he considers his "heritage".
Photo via Creative Loafing Atlanta.
B.Z.B. (that's me)
I have seen neighbor Alan Keck running around the park with his loathsome Confederate flag, and I hope he and any others who find the thing "quaint" or feel it is a valuable "heritage" symbol will read this article from a Charleston SC Conservative talk show host.
A.H.
I've thought about him and his flag a lot this week. Would be a bold move, to say the least, for him to parade it around in light of all that's unfolded recently.
A.S.C.
If he wants to fly that flag, that's his right. I don't care.
J.M
He was out this evening. I'd be concerned about safety and being a target in light of recent events if I were him.
L.B.
I don't know him but I was thinking about the political situation with that flag tonight. I grew up in what I thought was the south (Florida) but found out when I went to school in Auburn Alabama that I was a Damn Yankee and I was coached not to sit next to an African American in class. This was so strange to me. I was not old enough to live through the civil rights movement and growing up in Florida I had no clue about the racial clashes in the south.
Today as I listened to NPR report on the issue of the flag in Charleston I was thinking "why do they even need to debate this decision?" The flag is offensive to a large group of people and why would we want to continue to honor the horrific past with slavery and the young men who died during the Civil War where brothers fought against brothers. I think it's an embarrassment in our history and we need to let it go including the flag.
Alan Keck (the aforementioned Dixie flag bearer):
For the last week, I have been busy on a couple of jobs and have not had time to run. This afternoon it was not easy for me to lace up the running shoes and grab the battle flag. The lives of those good church-going people weigh upon me. I am ashamed that Dylan Roof raised the flag I love. May South Carolina justice be sure and quick and may God welcome those holy dead with open arms.
How can I counter, in a small way, the damage done to my beloved flag and the Cause itself? By simply raising the flag and letting my neighbors see the flag in another context, held up by someone who is accessible. So I slow-jogged three laps around the park with the flag held high. Thanks to those who offered their support along
the way. And to those who did the opposite, I simply say, “God bless you.”
L.B.
Good for you for jogging around the park. I'm confused why you think you need to carry the confederate flag. Are you doing it for someone else? I agree that it's a historic symbol of a time a long time ago but not relevant today. Why don't you start carrying an American flag. I would be happy to buy it for you. So what is your cause? Just curious because I don't understand your post explaining your position. No offense but I am not understanding it.
Alan Keck:
Thanks, Lindsey,
You are not the first to make that offer. You see, to me, the current American flag is a representation of the problems we face in America. In lieu of it, I raise another American flag—the battle flag of the CSA (Confederate States of America). I agree with William Faulkner, “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.”
One hundred fifty years ago, the South almost broke free of the leviathan state. They (the powers that be) have never forgotten. But neither have we. The arc of freedom and the struggle for small sovereign government is passed down, generation to generation, heart to heart.
Things are not as they seem in this media-controlled world, Lindsey. Look behind the curtain.
D.D.
Alan, with all due respect, the "cause" that you speak of can clearly be seen from South Carolina's Declaration of Succession to be fighting against "increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of Slavery..." I encourage you to check out the original documents yourself, if you are not familiar with them. By parading around with that banner, their "cause" is your "cause." Honestly, what do you expect your neighbors to think of you?
L.B.
There's no point in arguing with Alan. He has his own perception which is fine. But I think it's way off base.well Alan, I agree and I work for the horrible media you mentioned.
P.V.
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth..."
VP of the CSA, former Governor of Georgia Alexander Stephens in his "Cornerstone Speech"
The Confederacy's foundation is one of white supremacy, anyone honoring it is an apologist for racism, treason, and failure.
You might as well run around the block in white sheets.
J.M.
The flag is also known as "the Stainless Banner" and was designed by William T. Thompson, a newspaper editor and writer based in Savannah, Georgia, with assistance from William Ross Postell, a Confederate blockade runner. The nickname "stainless" referred to the pure white field which took up a large part of the flag's design, although W.T. Thompson, the flag's designer, referred to his design as "The White Man's Flag".In referring to the white field that comprised a large part of the flag's design elements, Thompson stated that its color symbolized the "supremacy of the white man":
Second national flag
(May 1, 1863 – March 4, 1865)
Second national flag, also used as the Confederate navy's ensign, "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. — William T. Thompson (April 23, 1863), Daily Morning News
just so you know the heritage you're supporting.
S.B.
To the descendants of slaves, and those who suffered under Jim Crow laws, and those who were beaten, jailed and lynched beneath this flag, it's a swastika. My ancestors fought for the confederacy. We lost. Get over it and grow the hell up.
S.J.
Alan, There is no other "context" other than it's original intent of hatred. Why perpetuate "hatred" of your fellow man???
J.M.
I get the feeling he would rather continue to parade something that is clearly a proved symbol of racism and defend it based on his "reasons" and personal perceptions than admit that he's perpetuating a symbol of hate and respectfully stop running around with it. It taints the impression of our neighborhood and insults the community we embrace as a symbol of white supremacy. He appears more concerned with his own experience though, despite how he tries to frame it. Even if he does not feel the racism in his heart that the flag represents, he needs to understand the rest of the world does. No amount of "god bless you's" will win any one over to this false "context" he has landed on to justify his beloved symbol of hatred.
L.G.
If someone wants to be so willfully ignorant, that is their problem. It's his right to run with that flag, but it's also my
right to call him a tired old racist in love with a revisionist version of history. He's no better than Westboro Baptist.
D.H.
^ I agree 100%.
Like it or loathe it, Alan is a symbol of our neighborhood's diversity.
Not all diversity is worth embracing.
S.M.
Hi folks my name is Suzanne and I live with my husband and kids in Summerhill. Our children attend ANCS and I LOVE Southeast Atlanta! I love it because of its tolerance and community. I run many days up Georgia Ave and around Grant Park. On occasion, I have seen our neighbor with his flag. As an African American women it just makes me sad. We live in the best part of town in what I call the embodiment of Dr King's Dream. My twins are 8 and it will be sad when I have to explain to them why our neighbor celebrates a symbol of slavery, terrorism and treason. This is America and I believe in freedom of speech and expression. But as your neighbor I'm asking
you to please stop carrying. the confederate flag. It's very hurtful to me and my family. Thanks for your consideration.
#southeastATLrocks
S.P.
I don't ever chime in on these posts when it comes to controversial situations like these, but I feel compelled to put in my two cents here. America was a nation built on religious freedom and freedom of speech. We are a melting pot of all races, philosophies and religions. Now that being said, I come from a family and circle of friends of all races, religions, etc and don't condone racism of any kind or religious persecution. But it is any persons right as
an American to believe what they want to believe and voice their opinion of it any way they feel. Is it right? It's not our place to say or judge. Doing so just adds to the hostility that's increasingly building in our country. Yes, things have changed and for the most part I feel that people are changing for the good. But to chastise someone for what they believe (right or wrong) is not the action to take. See that person, and realize they have a belief that holds strongly for them and if it offends, just ignore and hope the actions of your daily lives can speak strongly enough to your children and those around you teach them that everyone should be treated with love and respect. To do otherwise breaks down the fundamentals that this country stands for and why people risk their lives to come here and start anew.
J.W.
He does and absolutely should have the right to carry that flag around and preach whatever it is that he believes. I strongly support his right to do what he does, but we also have the same right and fundamental duty as decent human beings to call him out for what he says and does. That doesn't mean you advocate mistreatment or violence against him. I think Paul summed it up perfectly: the Confederacy's foundation is one of white supremacy, anyone honoring it is an apologist for racism.
S.M.
Sass actually I do have a right to call on my neighbors to be neighborly whether its picking up trash or promoting hurtful racists ideals for my children to see. I will not ignore either. I will continue to be a mother who informs and educates my children on right and wrong and being tolerant of others but I will also protect them and my neighbors from hate and divisive behavior. No different then a drunk stumbling through the park being loud and obscene. It's legal to drink and be loud and obscene in public but it's not neighborly and it's rude and I would ask them to stop too!
Just because it's legal doesn't make it ok! I won't be silent because I love my community and those are my very very strong beliefs!
S.J.
The only thing about exercising your constitutional rights on very sensitive issues is that while you may not be a person that would harm other people---you should consider that very impressionable young adults; and other mentally ill people are listening and watching. They are just waiting for ppl like Alan to agree with them.So they think it's ok to massacre 9 innocent people while they attend prayer meetings in the name of your belief (Dylan Roof).
Yes, by all means----believe what you want to believe---say what you want to say. Just know that you may be a contributor to unjustified killings.
ALSO, I want to say why specifically the confederate flag is offensive to me. I was born and raised in the heart of Atlanta. I am of the era and age where I was forced to ride in the back of the bus because of my race. I experienced not being allowed to drink from public water fountains. I experienced not being able to swim in the grant park pool. My family was NEVER on welfare or county assistance. We all had jobs as we turned of age. My brothers used to have to RUN from work (2:00am) at all the way down Moreland Ave from Catfish King near Ft Gillem. Why?? Because they couldn't be caught by White ppl walking to or from work. (ALL IN THE NAME OF
ALAN'S FLAG). We (girls) would walk from Thomasville (behind the Federal Pen) up the entire stretch of BLVD and then down Glenwood Ave. We would knock on the good White ppls doors and ask to wash
and iron their clothes. That was our job because ALAN's flag would not allow us to do any other work.
Though I am proud that our father and mother instilled good work ethics in us-----I wonder what we may have been able to accomplish had it not been for ALAN'S flag. The underlying intent of this symbol is STILL to show to all that will listen that Black lives does not matter. Have some things changed---yes--but not enough when you consider that so many young African American men are institutionalized for minor offenses. And so many of our young men
are shot down by officials in the street without just cause. YES, I know why Black men run when confronted by police-----my brothers had to run or be beaten. One last thing, some things you don't understand unless you have actually lived it. Peace.
S.B.
Sharon, I wish you would go to the WABE (local NPR) StoryCorp booth and tell your stories. Such a rich legacy in your post. Thanks for sharing it here.
B.G.
Love is the only way to conquer hate.
A.D.
I have also conquered hate in the past with Nutella. Just sayin'.
Maybe someone should visit Alan with a big tub of Nutella to replace the flag.
S.J.
Adam---good suggestion!! LOL ROL
WABE? I will consider that :)
J.W.
Now that's an idea!
P.V.
I generally eschew any comparisons to Nazi Germany in political or social discussions, but in the case of the Confederacy, and the rebel flag, I think the comparison is very apt. The Slave trade in North America, and fight for the preservation of the practice might be the only event in the modern world that can be put up against the acts of Nazi Germany, even though the Atlantic Slave trade spanned centuries, to the decade plus of Nazi atrocities.
Having said that, what would be the reaction if this gentleman ran around with the Nazi Flag? Would anyone defend that? Of course the first amendment give us the right in this country to waive whatever flag he wants, but that doesn't make him immune to societal pressure or criticism. But when does that act of speech cross the
line of intimidation? If he were to run through a neighborhood like Toco Hills, with a high concentration of Jewish people with the Nazi flag, would it shock or surprise anyone if he was arrested for terrorist threats and intimidation?
The Nazi Flag and Swastika have been banned in many European Countries because it has been used as a device of intimidation. Because of that, we are seeing Neo-Nazis adopt the Confederate Battle Flag in it's place.
I'm not saying he is necessarily trying to intimidate or make terrorist threats. Maybe in his misguided, warped, revisionist interpretation of history he honestly believes he is honoring the fallen soldiers of the Confederacy, many that died on the land we all currently reside on. I'm just making a point that there is a fine line between speech, scare tactics, and straight up threats.
It's undeniable and undebatable that like the Nazi Swastika, the Confederate Battle Flag has been used to intimidate and terrorize African Americans in this country for decades. It's also impossible to separate the racial implications of the flag and it's history.
It is what it is, a symbol of hate, intimidation, racism, treason, segregation, and failure.
I do not believe the gentleman in Grant Park should be arrested, persecuted, or forced to stop what he's doing, no matter how disgustingly distasteful it is, but he has to realize there are consequences to his speech, and the first amendment doesn't protect him from those. Just because the culture of the Confederacy has been more ingrained in our city, to the point to where many of us forget to notice it, doesn't make what he's doing any less offensive.
He should be treated no differently than anyone wearing a white hood, or a Swastika band round his arm.
S.J.
Amen!!
S.M.
I love my hood and Nutella!
S.J.
If it was left up to Alan and the likes of---I would probably still be picking cotton for his profit.. lol
P.H.
I think the Confederate flag is historical and be displayed in a museum. However, bandying it about, flying it like a "contemporary rebel freedom flag" is putting yourself out there like a skin-head. The wrong message. Re: Symbols: If you look up the origin of swastika (Nazi cross) you will find it was historically used as a symbol of a cross. The Nazi terrorist movement permanently contaminated that symbol. As we know, resurrecting it is very very damaging.
C.B.
If it stands for white history... Why be proud?
Let's see... Since we landed here we have maimed, killed, and caused massive deaths by disease.. To the native people who love this land... Because we wanted land. Has everyone forgotten indentured servitude? ... Before we could get our greedy little selves to Africa, we were enslaving people. Now we move in neighborhoods and move the natives out again.. And justify it....
I am white, love being white. Love the way we don't take shit. Love the inventions and technology we have brought to our world... But I ain't too damn proud of A LOT of our past.
K.K.
I've kept quiet on anything involving Alan for a long time but I'm going to say a couple of things on this. I am from the south... Byron, Georgia to be exact. It is a small town about 30 miles south of Macon. I am so proud of so many things that being southern has made me. I was raised to be polite, to respect others, and to not cause harm to my neighbors and those I love. Alan, I'm pretty sure I saw in a separate post that you aren't originally from the South
so maybe you don't understand that your actions are causing actual harm to your neighbors and your neighborhood... which is something that no true southerner (and I don't include ignorant "good ol' boys" in that classification) would do. I am caucasian and seeing you run with that flag feels like a punch in the stomach to me... I cannot imagine what it feels like to be an African-American and to witness it. That flag is no symbol of what I am and where and how I was raised and it is an insult to anyone who respects the south and the diversity and beauty that we have here. That flag is a symbol of a battle that was not only lost, but built on horrible notions of superiority, ego, and fear. It is a true shame that you can't embrace all of the wonderful things about this area of the country
and instead use such a negative, hateful symbol to show your admiration.
K.B.
Its sad that so many of you who claim to be 'tolerant' are so intolerant of other peoples opinions. Maybe you could form a group that goes door to door making sure everyone has 'appropriate' bumper stickers on their cars, etc... Oh wait, the Nazis already did that.
E.F.
Symbols are, by their very nature, a simplification of reality. There is an inherent misrepresentation any time symbols are used. In this case, the symbol clearly means different things to different people.
It is foolish to project _your_ meaning of a symbol onto another person, who clearly has another meaning. You are upset with someone for having ideas that don't even exist in his mind.
To retort the nazi flag claim: you should stop to consider whether he is a Hindu expressing good fortune from Vishnu before getting upset with him.
I don't have any idea if he is actually racist, but i'm betting y'all don't either. I'm all for calling out racists, just not
straw-men.
L.R. (Grant Park Neighborhood Association President)
In trying to understand Alan I went down the Google rabbit hole and
came across this video. Maybe? Alan?
L.J.
Thanks Kelley. I grew up in the South also. I could, obviously, leave but I stay by choice. It is a choice many Black people have made because it has a lot to offer. Your words ring true and Southern Hospitality is real. I remember calling my mom to cry about how rude everyone was in Boston on my first trip north. I am Black and I am a Southerner. If that flag and it's principles had prevailed, I would not even be considered a human being so I am
offended and it is not part of my Southern heritage.
Alan and his antics can't hurt me though because I have wonderful neighbors who see me as a valuable part of the community. But the influence that the flag has on a young mind like in the SC incident can be deadly. I am glad that something positive is coming out of this tragedy like the opportunity to discuss race with my neighbors and the removal of the flag in many states. Thank you neighbors for speaking up for what is right. Love always wins.
C.W.
It's about more than just a difference of opinion. The psychological toll of racism:
L.G.
There is a difference between judging someone's personal behavior and enabling public hatred. This thread is judging someone's personal behavior. Carrying that flag is enabling hatred.
S.J.
Lauren, I don't know what she (in the Vimeo video) is exactly saying by waving this flag. Is she for or "agin it" ?? She appears to be young and could not possibly have experienced what Dr ML King Jr and others did. Let's include sister Sojourner Truth, Booker T Washington and many others when we are talking about physical slavery in the true since of the word. Yes, anyone's mind can be enslaved. And yes, you may be strong enough to set yourself free from that kind of enslavement. Physical enslavement is a whole different subject. She may be confused about the terminology. :)
A.O.
Let the old guy run around taunting the present with the past. He has his rights and we have the right to take note, ignore him and move forward as a society. My only beef is with our government. Why are we issuing license plates with that flag on them? Why are the flags flying on any government property ANYWHERE in this country?
Germany doesn't issue sons of the Nazis plates. Pretty sure Cambodia isn't flying the Khmer Rouge flag at some provincial statehouse for "heritage." Live and let be, just don't let my tax dollars go to funding your questionable cause.
Sharon - I don't know her, but it sounds like she has given the flag her own meaning which she associates with freedom. It does seem she is referencing slavery in terms of being a slave to the government and does strongly believe slavery "in the true sense of the word" is bad. I had to watch the video about 3 times to answer the same questions in my head you're having.
S.J.
Lauren, you always have good insight. But, I am still confused. I just wonder if she knows or are aware of the difference of being physically enslaved and mentally enslaved. You are right, Just like Alan. Maybe he should reach out to her and they can "flag" together. Or better yet---do the Nutella thing. I'll help them with that. lol
Oh, how long did it take you to dig up a token?? still love ya!!
J.M.
I think we all need Nutella flags to carry around so we can show our appreciation for the tasty spread.
S.J.
Julie, I agree! I just bought some in the manager's special section (markdown) at ghetto Kroger.
L.R.
Sharon - you're so silly...not long actually! And being right is so not important to me. I am naturally curious and try to understand all sides. I posted that video to ask Alan if that is where he is coming from. I'd never heard of "flaggers," and was surprised to find an African American woman doing the same thing Alan is.
(To avoid any confusion... Sharon and I aren't upset with each other. We've been friends for a long time!)
S.J.
Lauren, you know that you and I are "good". Absolutely , good friends! :)
L.B.
I hope these posts have convinced Alan to stop running with the confederate flag. I understand that he has issues with the current government but changing the American Stripes and Stars for the confederate flag won't help. Alan, that's not the way to change things.
T.B.
This! From our neighbor, Doug Blackmon
L.B.
FYI, one of the two statues that sit in Statuary Hall in the US Capitol bldg in Washington, DC is one of Gov. Alexander Stephens Vice President of the Confederate States of America. "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth..."
VP of the CSA, former Governor of Georgia Alexander Stephens in his "Cornerstone Speech"
S.B.
K.M.
I realize I'm making light of the discussion, so my apologies....but thanks A LOT y'all! All I can dream about tonight
is Nutella and Nutella flags and how one simple hazelnut cocoa spread (that was not even invented in the U.S. of A.) shall bring us all together.
As for Alan, I want to believe you are achieving the goal I wish you truly have....encouraging and engaging people in this discussion. We all deserve rights, just know that waving the flag of your choice definitely signifies that you are in support of a group that so severely denied the rights of others. Recognize.
Alan Keck:
Thank God, truth does not depend on numbers.
I am struggling to breathe under a goodly group of neighbors who have piled on. I want to thank all of you for weighing in (no pun intended) on the issue of THE FLAG. Especially, I would like thank Lauren for her Karen Cooper link. That lightened the load a bit, Lauren. Thanks.
I met Karen at the Confederate Memorial Service, Stone Mountain, April, 2014. In fact, we and two other friends were going to walk around Grant Park together with our flags the Monday after the service, but were rained out. I always regretted that rain. It would have marked the first time in my years of running that someone had actually forwarded the colors with me. Hey, as this thread illustrates, sometimes, it’s a lonely, contentious drill out
there. So southern man (or woman) if you feel the South calling you, grab a flag and stand up for your heritage. This is my invitation to you. You are not alone.
And thanks to Kyle, Eli, and Sass for their pleas for tolerance.
(to) Paul and Lori:
Your quote of Alexander Stephens (VP of CSA) is representative of the times. Consider President Lincoln: “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. (from the Lincoln-Douglas Debates). But a fellow Georgian, Robert Toombs, described
the cornerstone of the Confederacy differently than Stephens: “The basis, the corner-stone of this Government was the perfect equality of the free sovereign, and independent States which made it.” If the South had won the War, I think that slavery would have disappeared, peacefully, like it did in every other civilized nation of the world. It’s a signal fact that Lincoln only “freed the slaves” two years into the War when the North was losing—to prevent diplomatic recognition of the CSA by Great Britain.
(to) Samma:
I agree that Lincoln used a chain saw, alright; but he used it to cut up the Constitution. No where in the Constitution does it say that a State cannot secede. His cry of “Union” was a pretext to force sovereign states to submit to the dictates of a federal government.
(to) Trudy;
It’s too late tonight for me to argue points from Mr. Blackmon’s article. I would observe, though, that he is quite a name-caller— evoking dark emotion. Perhaps, on this board sometime we can discuss the civil rights movement. It’s an article of faith to Mr. Blackmon. But I question it. We should integrate willingly, not because we are forced to by some federal mandate specifying quotas, set-asides, and preferences. Discrimination is not a bad thing necessarily — it is just freedom of choice by another name. It seems like the “powers that be” always want to regulate our behavior rather than allowing us to come around naturally. The communists would usher in Utopia with the command “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Those sentiments enforced
by total government yield millions dead and untold suffering. Yeah, I follow the command in my family, but I am not ready to do it for society in general. The “powers that be” are really good at forcing an issue, and keeping us divided. - Alan Keck
H.B.
The confederate flag is a symbol of a racist regime. That's a fact. Georgia and the rest south need get rid confederate symbolism wherever it is on state property. Long , long over due.
My personal goal is Beloved Community.
M.S.
Thanks, Barbara, for your original post. To Alan, I would say that when you look behind the ideological curtain are up of words like "heritage," "history," "tradition," "cultural legacy"--all words that used to defend while really decontructualizing the flag--one finds physical exploitation, beating, lynching, rape, the forced fragmentation of African-American families, the commodification of human beings, and all the other horrors that formed the foundation of the Southern economy and the cultural heritage that was its superstructure in the 19th century. History must be viewed in its totality, and if you are proud of the Southern history symbolized by the flag, you must also be proud of the historical trauma the flag symbolizes for African-Americans because these two histories
are merely two aspects of the sane history. To deny this is to perpetuate racism by selecting an interpretation that itself is an act of symbolic violence, once again attempting to silence the voices that bear witness to one of the darker chapters of American history. So, no, things aren't always as they appear in the FOX media (your choice for "news," I would guess) driven world.
E.F.
Alan I would also implore you to consider tolerance. It is clear that no one is going to convince you to stop by making assumptions and calling you names, so I hope that it can come about in a natural way. All that I would ask is that you meditate for a while on how that flag has been used in the last 50 years.
K.Y.
I can't believe that some people think the confederates were just some noble libertarians fighting the tyranny of big government. Good thing only a few people still feel this way (not me). Oh, and my great great Grandfather fought for the confederates at the battle of Peachtree Creek. Thank god we can grow out of the past.
B.G.
struggling to breathe under all of the piling on? Kind of ironic.
K.J.
How many vanquished entities get to retain the use of their flag? None. Get over it.
P.V.
Alan, no one was arguing that Lincoln, or anyone on the Union side were racially enlightened to 21st, or even 20th century standards. It's irrelevant what Lincoln's views on race were, because the fight of the civil war was about slavery, not necessarily equal rights. It was the ending of slavery that began America's road to redemption on civil rights. The comments from Lincoln were when he was running for Senate. So they aren't really relevant to the
context of the Rebel Flag and the Confederacy and their attempt to keep the institution of slavery alive, because there was no Confederacy in 1858. .
Alexander Stephens was the VP of the confederacy so you can't dismiss his rhetoric by bringing up one quote from Robert Toombs, who was addressing the Georgia Legislature where he was pondering the treasonous secession from the United States. Even if the war wasn't about slavery (and it absolutely was), it doesn't make treason okay. Toombs didn't like the outcome of a democratic election (By 19the century standards, anyway), and argued to break the country apart. That doesn't help your case. You're dismissing slavery, and relishing treason, by cherry-picking the times slavery wasn't implicitly discussed among Confederate Leaders. That doesn't mean the war wasn't ultimately about slavery.
By far the dumbest statement you made was: "If the South had won the War, I think that slavery would have disappeared, peacefully, like it did in every other civilized nation of the world. "
Really? For one thing South Carolina was the initial aggressor. They attacked Ft. Sumter. Any peaceful solutions were thrown out the window when they rebelled against their own country. If they wanted a peaceful end to slavery, they would have worked for a peaceful solution, instead they started a war. The south never had a chance to win. Even if they had, there is no such thing as peaceful slavery. Whether it lasted one month, or a year, there's
no such thing as a peaceful when it comes to slavery. If the south had won, even if slavery lasted only one month, it wouldn't have been anymore acceptable. It needed to end, and Lincoln deserves credit for ending it.
This isn't a debate about policy. Your opinion is based on lies.and cherry-picked, revisionist history. It doesn't deserve respect, because it's not a sound opinion based in reality. You are an apologist for treason at best. a bigot and white supremacist at worst.
You should be ashamed.
S.J.
Kris, while I wholeheartedly agree with your view of freedom of speech----99% of ppl with Alan's view of his superiority over certain other ppl tend to eventually act out their beliefs (Dylan Roof and many others.) Hitler. Alan's a much older racist that has been at this for many, many years. He may have been/is a member of the KKK. You know they ALL hide behind his flag. Statistics show that he will reach his breaking point and either wreak havoc on
someone or cause others to do so. He should learn to suffer in silence like his victims have done. Yeah, he can dish it out, but he can't take it.
T.S.
Glad I'm not an Englishman flying the British flag. They imposed all sorts of nasty things globally, slavery being one of them.
However, I fly my US flag in front of my home because of all of the positive connotations, not in remembrance of the negative. Any remnants of heritage associated with the CSA flag have been redacted by the hatred that embraces it. People should have the right to use that flag how they wish, but those that bear it will almost always be imprisoned to one side of the polarizing issue that is racism. It just doesn't represent what some people want it
to represent.
Everyone here has the right to tell me why they think that the US flag represents arrogance, greed, and disparity. I fly the flag because of your freedom to do so and in honor of the people who gave citizens the right to do so.
P.V.
The US flag vs. the Confederate Battle Flag argument has no basis in reality.
The Confederate Battle Flag is the flag of a failed state. The US Flag is a flag of a living nation that's ever evolving. The rebel flag represents the past, it represents a failed treasonous rebellion based on the supremacy of the white race and preservation of the institution of slavery. The US flag is based on the ideal of what the US should be, not it's blemishes and sins. It's an ever changing flag, representing an ever-changing nation.
The US flag is about unity and where we are today, looking to tomorrow. The Confederate Flag is about division, and holding on to a shameful past.
M.C.
On a side note- I was born and raised in Charleston, SC and moved to Columbia for school in my early twenties. Since then, I have lived in a few different southern cities. I keep hearing people condemning the racism of the people in South Carolina, lumping in or boldly denouncing Charlestonians with the bunch. Growing up, we were taught the history of segregation and slavery, but didn't understand it. I grew up loving and being loved by people from all over the world. There is a passion and understanding there that I didn't appreciate as unique until I
ventured from that haven. It's a place of spontaneous potlucks because some had more than enough food and others not enough. It's a city where, on one stroll down the battery, you can hear English, French, Tagalog, and Gullah within a two mile stretch. It's a place where you help or hug a stranger, just because they are there and
need that kindness. Maybe it's just the unique vibe of Charleston or perhaps it was having Hugo rip through and demand that we all work together to survive the storm and its aftermath. Either way, as a resident, the city always seemed to be about unity (and, of course, palm tree forts).
I was in high school when the decision was made to move the flag from the dome to a memorial on the State house grounds and to erect the African American monument for "equal measure" nearby. I can remember thinking it wasn't a big deal- the flag, that is- because I couldn't see the damage being done. I was lucky enough to be
sheltered from the hate so many proudly associate with this flag.
And that isn't the case for everyone. Many people do associate it with Southern pride and they feel it represents their state boldly standing up to "the man"-regardless of what the facts say.
And I am sad that all that Charleston is doing well in throughout this heart-wrenching situation is being reduced down to bitter sniping about a relic from the past that is doing so much harm and suffocating the good.
P.V.
Here's a great read reviewing the casus belli of the seceding states, that should settle any debate over the reasons for the creation of the confederacy, and ultimately what that flag represents.
K.H.
Everyone can have rights, Americans always argue about their rights. At some point in time you have to have manners and respect for other people and that trumps your rights. This argument is as selfish, self serving and disrespectful as it gets. That stupid flag is offensive and represents the sickness in this country.
B.Z.B:
I'm very grateful to this community for a lively, intelligent, generally good-natured discussion about another hot button topic. On the first day I shared this article (which I hope was read by some, if not all of you), I received a warning from NextDoor.com that my post had been "flagged" as offensive to someone. I was not asked to take it down, and I'm so glad that I did not. Thanks to all of you for expressing yourselves so eloquently, for supporting your arguments with sensitivity and compassion, whether founded in reality (or not). Suzanne and Sharon, especially, thanks for your beautiful, heartbreaking, first-person stories. And now I want Nutella.
S.J.
Thank you Barbara for having the "gumption" to bring up the subject and speak your heart. I thank everyone for their thoughts. I gained further insight on my part. The articles presented were very informative and enlightening. It's so great when we can ALL agree to disagree. Hmmmm, I wonder who flagged you??? ok, yes , I'm done---it's nutella time. :)
Alan Keck:
Hey folks, good discussion. I appreciate all the comments directed to me, and only regret I do not have time to give your specific objections the time they deserve. But I have heard them all and hope to consider them more fully when I have time to do the necessary research and thinking. So tonight, let me restate briefly why I run with the historical battle flag of our Southern land. I am not an historian, but I have a reverence for history. Born in
the late Forties and raised in Arkansas, spending my adult life in Atlanta, I am of the conviction that our morals and mores are vanishing to the point of nihilism. That is why I run.
Nowadays, government is a servant to “powers that be.” And that ain’t us. We have been manipulated for a long time. How many of us believe the government’s report on the Kennedy assassination or its story of 911? And looking at the photographic evidence of the Boston Bombing, I am appalled to see crises actors doing their thing. Folks, it is in our face. That is why I run.
Most of you young people will be walking on my grave just as I walk and ponder the graves of an increasing number of people I have known. Life is short. You are the future and are of infinite worth.
I look into an open grave with my name on the headstone. That is why I run.
Jefferson Davis said, “The contest is not over, the strife is not ended. It has only entered on a new and enlarged arena. The champions of constitutional liberty must spring to the struggle . . . .” That is why I run.
J.K.
And ...scene.
M.R.
Hey Alan ! I'm an active Libertarian and somewhat of an anarchist.
I can see your fervor for small govt., liberty and secession. With that said, I challenge you as a fellow lover of liberty and a person who also dislikes the govt with a passion to check out this video about why you should NOT support the Confederate Flag.
It might not change your beliefs at all, and that's your god given right ! I only ask that as a neighbor with a very similar ideology (small/limited/no govt) to give this a watch. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
S.M.
Barbara thank you for having the courage to speak up and yes! It's Nutella Time! #LoveSEAtl! (Southeast Atlanta)
L.C.
I'll run for Nutella.
GPNP Pres. L.R.
Since the flagging of the post was brought up.... there was one flag on Barbara's post, and the Nextdoor reason selected for the flagging was that the post is "inappropriate." The person who flagged the post didn't provide a personal comment to explain their reason (which is an option), but Nextdoor provides some possibilities.
One Nextdoor Guideline:
***Disagree without being disagreeable; focus on issues and do not engage in personal attacks.***
"....his loathsome flag, and I hope he" could be considered somewhat personally attacking. There were also some personal attacks peppered throughout the comments as well.
One suggestion: write what you want to say, then take out as many pronouns (I, me, he, she, herself, you, it, etc.) as you can which can be quite challenging because it will force a rewrite of quite a few sentences.This tactic will help decrease personal attacks, take people off the defense, and help focus on the topic.
Overall this was a great discussion!
Stay neighborly my friends! ;)
B.Z.B:
Thanks, as always, Lauren. I momentarily considered rephrasing "his loathsome flag", but I think the attack on an object, and one which is designated and displayed to provoke, is not personal. Alan seems to be an intelligent, thoughtful man whose deep hurt in some previous or imagined life causes him to lash out in this manner.
He's only a decade older than I, and in far better shape, so we'll see which of us walks on the other's grave. But I promise him that his antiquitous ideas (he once called 2 of my friends "f**s" for holding hands in the park) will be buried in the landfill of history.
GPNA Prez L.R.
Barbara - Alan is in better shape than me! If I tried to twirl that flag like he does I'm positive it'd be a Mary Katherine Gallagher scene.
Here is a story about Alan from the news yesterday:
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/29413510/atlanta-man-waves-confederate-flag-in-grant-park-despite-backlashHere is a story about Alan from the news yesterday:
L.J.
How embarrassing for our neighborhood!! I always brag about the tolerance and love that I feel in Grant Park. What will I say now?!?!?
A.D.
You can point them to this thread and all of the tolerant, loving people in it :-)
And then give them some Nutella.
And then give them some Nutella.
R.B.
The simple fact that Alan can run with the CBF in our neighborhood illustrates just how tolerant our great neighborhood is.
A.B.
Totally agree, Rob!
M.E.
Some( not all as displayed in this post) people being tolerate of a flat out racist symbol doesn't make me feel good about the neighborhood.
D.S.
Yes, tolerant. But not confronting someone willing to run around a very racially mixed part of town with an incendiary symbol points to common sense as well as tolerance. Can you be sure he isn't packing a musket under those running shorts......okay, that's not exactly what I was trying to say....
S.R.
Alan, it's my understanding that the CSA had a substantially more vigorous and invasive central governing and regulatory apparatus, particularly as regards taxation, than the Federal government of the time. You may want to include some investigation into the actual institutional reality of the CSA, rather than its public self-image, in your further research. Though of course the facts pointed to by our neighbors earlier in the thread should be more than enough to settle the issue on their own.
D.H.
Lekshhia, happily, an outlier does not make for a trend.
K.B.
Tolerance isn't about 'feeling good' or pointing out someone is 'flat wrong'. It's having an appreciation that regardless of what you 'think', there are other people on the planet who see if differently.
L.J.
So maybe tolerance is not the word I should use. But I think you all know exactly what I mean. I have always envisioned GP as a place that welcomes people of all races, backgrounds, sexual orientation but did not welcome HATE. So it all comes down to semantics--does tolerance mean welcoming and accepting someone who is intolerant.
As to the person who replied that Alan is an outlier. He may be an outlier but that outlier got the opportunity to represent our neighborhood on Fox of all places. The message to the people who are not on NextDoor is that it is okay to run around GP with your flag and maybe wear your white sheet too. No one is going to do a thing.....
As to the person who replied that Alan is an outlier. He may be an outlier but that outlier got the opportunity to represent our neighborhood on Fox of all places. The message to the people who are not on NextDoor is that it is okay to run around GP with your flag and maybe wear your white sheet too. No one is going to do a thing.....
M.E.
There are many actions and words which remind me every single day there are other people who see things differently. Diversity of political ideologies, race, religion, nationality and socioeconomic is something I not only embrace but deal with on a daily basis. The willingness of people to tolerate this, a racist symbol people love to say isn't racist while hiding behind some eyebrow raising ideologies, again doesn't make me feel great about the neighborhood.
K.B.
GP is very tolerant by allowing a civil discussion on this board and not trying to police the neighborhood and get rid everything that people deem 'hate'. If you want to see intolerance, try living in the middle east right now.
H.S.
Alan, surely you can find another way to express your views about government besides heralding a symbol of a racist regime.
L.J.
Really Kyle? The Middle East was the only place you could think of less tolerant than Grant Park. I expect more from my country; more from my city and more from my neighborhood. If that is all you can come up with (a place where people are beheaded for being different), we are setting our standards far too low.
D.H.
"As to the person who replied that Alan is an outlier. He may be an outlier but that outlier got the opportunity to represent our neighborhood on Fox of all places. The message to the people who are not on NextDoor is that it is okay to run around GP with your flag and maybe wear your white sheet too. No one is going to do a thing..... "
That was me Lakeshia.
Let the Fox viewers think what they want.
And yes, tolerance does mean accepting someone who is not tolerant:
tol·er·ant
ˈtäl(ə)rənt/
adjective
adjective: tolerant
1.
showing willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
“Ignorance and prejudice are the handmaidens of propaganda. Our mission, therefore, is to confront ignorance with knowledge, bigotry with tolerance, and isolation with the outstretched hand of generosity. Racism can, will, and must be defeated.”
― Kofi Annan
That was me Lakeshia.
Let the Fox viewers think what they want.
And yes, tolerance does mean accepting someone who is not tolerant:
tol·er·ant
ˈtäl(ə)rənt/
adjective
adjective: tolerant
1.
showing willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
“Ignorance and prejudice are the handmaidens of propaganda. Our mission, therefore, is to confront ignorance with knowledge, bigotry with tolerance, and isolation with the outstretched hand of generosity. Racism can, will, and must be defeated.”
― Kofi Annan
A.D.
I like the discussion going on here! It's great. Everyone remember to take a moment every once in awhile and remember that we are internet discussing, so tone and intent may not come across in the intended manner (not that anyone so far has been guilty of that). Have these conversations with your friends and family in person too!
K.B.
No Lekeshia, of course its not the only place i can think of. We all have our examples. I was just saying i am glad to be able to express a view point and retain my head/limbs. I love that you have high standards and i appreciate that you strive and fight for them while others do the same.
L.J.
Sorry, guys! I may have let my emotions get the best of me. I really tried to stay out of this discussion for some time but wasn't successful. I had dealt with the Alan situation once before and put it to rest. I am fighting for 3 young boys who are 13, 11 and 6 and LOVE GP. If I ever mention moving, they say never. I want them to always feel safe here and welcome here and like their neighbors are looking out for them. I loathe the day that I have to talk to them about Alan and that flag. I am glad that we can have this discussion too.
M.E.
This is a great discussion, agreed.
M.R.
First I'll say everyone should check out this video it's super informative.
Alan, as a libertarian/anarchist, and an advocate against the oppression of the state I love your passion for total freedom, but representing the confederate flag is the equivalent to kids wearing che guevara shirts. It's mis-guided history. Although yes the Union at the time was oppressive, the CSA's reasons for secession were equally as oppressive to the prosperity of all men as stated in the initial reasons for secession (video). Simply put, Lincoln was def. racist and so was Davis. Trying to find a good side in the civil war is gonna be an arduous task.
I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say that I will probably agree with you on a lot more issues than some of the people posting so just hear me out on this one and watch this video and let me know your thoughts when you get a minute.
Alan, as a libertarian/anarchist, and an advocate against the oppression of the state I love your passion for total freedom, but representing the confederate flag is the equivalent to kids wearing che guevara shirts. It's mis-guided history. Although yes the Union at the time was oppressive, the CSA's reasons for secession were equally as oppressive to the prosperity of all men as stated in the initial reasons for secession (video). Simply put, Lincoln was def. racist and so was Davis. Trying to find a good side in the civil war is gonna be an arduous task.
I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say that I will probably agree with you on a lot more issues than some of the people posting so just hear me out on this one and watch this video and let me know your thoughts when you get a minute.
Friends and neighbors, if you would like to share this discussion with others outside of the immediate neighborhood, I've transcribed most of it (will update later) to my sorely-neglected blog. I removed all full names except for Alan's, as he has made a public figure of himself and his issue. If anyone wishes their comments be removed, please PM me.
In the wake of the Charleston massacre, a conversation with Atlantans about the Confederate Flag. http://theterribleparable.blogspot.com/2...
H.S.
i just wanted to mention that I have been participating in the Dismantling Racism movement in Atlanta.If anyone wants more info let me know. One of the emphases is creating "circles" of of neighbors who meet weekly for coffee or whatever, just to talk about our experiences. this is aimed at making sure we are intentional about reaching across racial lines to form strong community bonds. I'm ready to start a new group any time. Beer? Wine? Coffee? whatever you wish.
B.Z.B.
Helen, I love that idea!
J.B.
I drew a comic about this "Southern Heritage" nonsense. It'll show up Monday morning at http://GrumblesGuy.tumblr.com. Here's a sample panel:
Alan Keck:
It’s after midnight and I’ve just finished reading the latest posts and watching that video of me. Overall, I get a good feeling about this discussion. We have got a lot off our chests, for the better I think. You have all made me think more deeply about what I am doing than ever before.
Michael R.:
You are right, I hold many libertarian ideas. Thank you for the link—very well chosen. However, I take issue with Murray Rothbard’s quote; and, of course, it’s implications. I do not think that the only solution to the slave question is “immediate and unconditional abolition, with no compensation to the slavemasters.” One hundred and fifty years ago something stood between slavery and its solution: the rule of law. Which, as Mr. Kuznicki points out, Lincoln chose to ignore and violate in many ways. (As an aside, I could more easily justify such immediate, extra-legal action for something more on the order of state-sanctioned abortion—55 million dead and counting.) No, I don’t think slavery rises to a level of evil that would compel the rule of law to be *officially* ignored and violated (although I think *individuals* could morally do so). Slavery had been in the colonies a couple of hundred years before independence; and, in the world, millennia before that. It was (as pro-choice advocates put it) “settled law.” Why the sudden rush to end it at the expense of all we held dear? I submit that it was a war tactic of Lincoln—two years into the War, his Proclamation did not affect slavery in the North or Northern-held territory. Lee personally freed all his slaves in ’61; Grant in ’66 when the law compelled it. I submit the War was not about slavery, but about hegemony of the North (read “big government”) that has continued to this day. If you accept my reasoning thus far, how could you fail to see the Cross of St. Andrew as anything but a positive response to tyranny—a just symbol for that day and ours?
Let me reiterate that I believe slavery would have disappeared peacefully in the South had we won. Consider that the Virginia legislature considered a bill to gradually abolish slavery in 1831.
Michael, can you think of any good points about slavery or is it all black as the pit of hell?
Barbara B.:
Thank you for your courage to post. I am grown-up and can take a pejorative of two. Funny you mention a previous life. I’ve got to be careful here not to offend my Baptist friends . . . but, back in the 60’s, I had a mescaline experience in Piedmont Park. Campfires all around; I was with the boys in blue. Did I participate in the burning of Atlanta and Sherman’s march? Who knows? But it is funny that I have spent my whole life building Atlanta—and I mean physically. This I do know: God is merciful beyond all telling.
About my alleged interaction with your two friends, I have no memory of such an incident. Although I believe homosexuality is less than ideal, I have no memory of calling anyone a fa**ot in my entire life. I would count it a privilege if you would introduce me to your friends.
Sebastian R.:
Your statement rings true. I will have to do more research to respond.
Lekeshia J.:
I would like to know of the “Alan situation” that you dealt with before. I am assuming it did not turn out well. To really put it to rest, perhaps we need to talk.
I would never knowing set a bad example for any young person (God knows I have sinned though). I know this is off-the-rails for you, Lekeshia, but my desire is to be a roll model for boys and young men.
James B.:
NICE drawing—that’s my self-image alright. Why do I have the sinking feeling that my alter ego is in for some bad times?
Michael R.:
You are right, I hold many libertarian ideas. Thank you for the link—very well chosen. However, I take issue with Murray Rothbard’s quote; and, of course, it’s implications. I do not think that the only solution to the slave question is “immediate and unconditional abolition, with no compensation to the slavemasters.” One hundred and fifty years ago something stood between slavery and its solution: the rule of law. Which, as Mr. Kuznicki points out, Lincoln chose to ignore and violate in many ways. (As an aside, I could more easily justify such immediate, extra-legal action for something more on the order of state-sanctioned abortion—55 million dead and counting.) No, I don’t think slavery rises to a level of evil that would compel the rule of law to be *officially* ignored and violated (although I think *individuals* could morally do so). Slavery had been in the colonies a couple of hundred years before independence; and, in the world, millennia before that. It was (as pro-choice advocates put it) “settled law.” Why the sudden rush to end it at the expense of all we held dear? I submit that it was a war tactic of Lincoln—two years into the War, his Proclamation did not affect slavery in the North or Northern-held territory. Lee personally freed all his slaves in ’61; Grant in ’66 when the law compelled it. I submit the War was not about slavery, but about hegemony of the North (read “big government”) that has continued to this day. If you accept my reasoning thus far, how could you fail to see the Cross of St. Andrew as anything but a positive response to tyranny—a just symbol for that day and ours?
Let me reiterate that I believe slavery would have disappeared peacefully in the South had we won. Consider that the Virginia legislature considered a bill to gradually abolish slavery in 1831.
Michael, can you think of any good points about slavery or is it all black as the pit of hell?
Barbara B.:
Thank you for your courage to post. I am grown-up and can take a pejorative of two. Funny you mention a previous life. I’ve got to be careful here not to offend my Baptist friends . . . but, back in the 60’s, I had a mescaline experience in Piedmont Park. Campfires all around; I was with the boys in blue. Did I participate in the burning of Atlanta and Sherman’s march? Who knows? But it is funny that I have spent my whole life building Atlanta—and I mean physically. This I do know: God is merciful beyond all telling.
About my alleged interaction with your two friends, I have no memory of such an incident. Although I believe homosexuality is less than ideal, I have no memory of calling anyone a fa**ot in my entire life. I would count it a privilege if you would introduce me to your friends.
Sebastian R.:
Your statement rings true. I will have to do more research to respond.
Lekeshia J.:
I would like to know of the “Alan situation” that you dealt with before. I am assuming it did not turn out well. To really put it to rest, perhaps we need to talk.
I would never knowing set a bad example for any young person (God knows I have sinned though). I know this is off-the-rails for you, Lekeshia, but my desire is to be a roll model for boys and young men.
James B.:
NICE drawing—that’s my self-image alright. Why do I have the sinking feeling that my alter ego is in for some bad times?
S.J.
I know I said I was done. But I could tell ya'll a lot about "cosmopolitan Atlanta and Grant Park.
ALAN, You state in your most recent post that "...... I believe slavery would have disappeared peacefully in the South had we won. Consider that the Virginia legislature considered a bill to gradually abolish slavery in 1831." I'll bet you also believe in the "trickledown" theory. Did your income perk up a notch or two thru "trickledown" economics??? I suspect not. People who earn the big bucks want to keep it and pile on more and more. That's how they stay at the top, right?? I actually have no problem with that except that Blacks as a people were not given the same opportunities because of slavery.
Anyway, just like slavery would never have ended voluntarily because it was much too profitable. To put it mildly, (and this point was brought out in more than one of the articles posted here) your ancestors didn't build the south, Black slaves did it thru picking cotton for you folks, building roads, railroads, bridges and your houses. ALL for free or very little compensation. You can't ' beat forced free labor. Most Whites were too lazy to get out in the hot sun and work that hard. One of the articles said, paraphrasing, "...they didn't think the pigmentation of their skin could tolerate the sun like the Black slaves could". Now that's a very shallow excuse.
Ever read the Willie Lynch Letter or 12 Years A Slave? Probably not. It was required reading when I was in high school. There's lots of other good reading out there from first hand accounts.You should read some of them. It may give you other insight/ perspectives on what actually went on. You may be able to release some of that pent up hatred you have endured for too many years. You may even end up shouting "FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, I'M FREE AT LAST". (smile, I know I'm being a little dramatic. I have a lite hearted personality.) Hmmm... maybe had it not been for the ideals behind the confederacy and YOUR flag--I would be further along the economic chain. But, I'm good. Peace Out.
ALAN, You state in your most recent post that "...... I believe slavery would have disappeared peacefully in the South had we won. Consider that the Virginia legislature considered a bill to gradually abolish slavery in 1831." I'll bet you also believe in the "trickledown" theory. Did your income perk up a notch or two thru "trickledown" economics??? I suspect not. People who earn the big bucks want to keep it and pile on more and more. That's how they stay at the top, right?? I actually have no problem with that except that Blacks as a people were not given the same opportunities because of slavery.
Anyway, just like slavery would never have ended voluntarily because it was much too profitable. To put it mildly, (and this point was brought out in more than one of the articles posted here) your ancestors didn't build the south, Black slaves did it thru picking cotton for you folks, building roads, railroads, bridges and your houses. ALL for free or very little compensation. You can't ' beat forced free labor. Most Whites were too lazy to get out in the hot sun and work that hard. One of the articles said, paraphrasing, "...they didn't think the pigmentation of their skin could tolerate the sun like the Black slaves could". Now that's a very shallow excuse.
Ever read the Willie Lynch Letter or 12 Years A Slave? Probably not. It was required reading when I was in high school. There's lots of other good reading out there from first hand accounts.You should read some of them. It may give you other insight/ perspectives on what actually went on. You may be able to release some of that pent up hatred you have endured for too many years. You may even end up shouting "FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, I'M FREE AT LAST". (smile, I know I'm being a little dramatic. I have a lite hearted personality.) Hmmm... maybe had it not been for the ideals behind the confederacy and YOUR flag--I would be further along the economic chain. But, I'm good. Peace Out.
It's early and I need to get back to work.
J.M.
Alan is so rooted in his flag story and his attachment to running with it is so much a part of his identity that he will never conceded the real impression it leaves separate from his own definition. It's his "reason d'etre" at this point..especially since he's now had his 3 minutes of fame on FOX news with it. I think making Nutella flags or other flags with kittens or bunnies on them and running near him those would not only be fun but diminish the statement he is making rather than trying to change his heart.
H.S.
Alan, I see your liberatarian views do not extend to women's self determination and reproductive freedom.
M.E.
After seeing him run around with thay flag yesterday watching for peoples reactions and him asking if there was anything good about slavery, I realized this is all for attention. I mean because, come on......
D.L.
Alan, I think you're right on a couple things:
The CSA seceded because they perceived a threat to the institution of slavery, manifested in the election of Lincoln (despite Lincoln not receiving a single electoral vote from a slave holding state).
Lincoln viewed secession as unlawful and waged a military campaign against the renegade Confederacy in order to force their return to the purview of the Federal Government.
You're right: the war was not waged over slavery. It could have ended after the first Battle of Bull Run and slavery would have still existed throughout the slave holding states.
But all that really means is that Lincoln and the Union forces weren't quite as noble as a simplistic view of a war over slavery portends. It does nothing, however, to remove the stain of forming a new nation with the expressed purpose of preserving an institution that compelled bondage of a race of people. And ultimately that is why most of us view symbols of the Confederacy (to include the battle flag of Northern Virginia) as representative of those principles.
Perhaps you could just fly a "Don't Tread on Me" flag instead? Same concept, but without the undeniable tie to the preservation of a despicable institution.
The CSA seceded because they perceived a threat to the institution of slavery, manifested in the election of Lincoln (despite Lincoln not receiving a single electoral vote from a slave holding state).
Lincoln viewed secession as unlawful and waged a military campaign against the renegade Confederacy in order to force their return to the purview of the Federal Government.
You're right: the war was not waged over slavery. It could have ended after the first Battle of Bull Run and slavery would have still existed throughout the slave holding states.
But all that really means is that Lincoln and the Union forces weren't quite as noble as a simplistic view of a war over slavery portends. It does nothing, however, to remove the stain of forming a new nation with the expressed purpose of preserving an institution that compelled bondage of a race of people. And ultimately that is why most of us view symbols of the Confederacy (to include the battle flag of Northern Virginia) as representative of those principles.
Perhaps you could just fly a "Don't Tread on Me" flag instead? Same concept, but without the undeniable tie to the preservation of a despicable institution.
J.B.
Alan: The comic isn't about you. I drew it before I even knew you existed. I was trying to come up with a composite figure for the kinda goofball that would literally wrap themselves in such a symbol of hatred. But if the shoe fits...
B.Z.B.
Alan, that story was the first time I ever heard of you, about 5 years ago. I was not living in GP then but my son shared a house with several friends here, and 2 of them reported this brief interaction with "Dixie Flag Guy". They'll be getting married soon! I'll see if I can wrangle you an invitation.
T.M.
James, I think your comic hero looks too heroic. It needs a background of burning crosses and shadowy hooded figures... and maybe some crushed up beer cans. And his shirt should be a greasy "wife beater" (and I use that despicable name for a tank top quite deliberately).
I think it should be obvious by now that there is no good purpose served in a conversation with this individual, whom I shall not name. All this attention is just adding fuel to his determination. What is necessary to dis-empower him is less attention. He feeds off your outrage and kind hearted efforts to enlighten.
It's time to turn your backs.
I think it should be obvious by now that there is no good purpose served in a conversation with this individual, whom I shall not name. All this attention is just adding fuel to his determination. What is necessary to dis-empower him is less attention. He feeds off your outrage and kind hearted efforts to enlighten.
It's time to turn your backs.
J.B.
Thanks, Tom.
I'm attempting to contrast their image as something they see as "heroic" with how moronic they actually are. It's a balance. Take a look at the final comic on Monday and let me know what you think.
But thanks for the input.
I'm attempting to contrast their image as something they see as "heroic" with how moronic they actually are. It's a balance. Take a look at the final comic on Monday and let me know what you think.
But thanks for the input.
S.B.
Just putting this put there:
S.M.
Should we also change the Georgia State Flag?
T.M.
From that NPR piece linked above by Samma.."It (the flag) wasn't particularly distressing so much as it was (still is) a reminder of who not to associate with"
L.B.
This is the most polite debate I've ever seen on the Internet. Everyone is so respectful of others opinions and views. In my mind, this is the real southern culture and heritage. Not that stupid flag that started this. I've also had a wonderful history lesson.
M.R.
Alan to answer your questions...
"Why the sudden rush to end Slavery at the expense of all we held dear?"
Because there were other humans living in enslavement that didn't have those rights of natural and total freedom that we held dear ? It's ironic to say you're for protecting the liberty of slave owners... the very people taking liberty away from other humans. I just can't understand why you as a person who SAYS they love freedom so much could be so easy to defend.... Slavery ? You have to see the irony.
I understand the standpoint people take that the issue of slavery issue was secondary and that tariffs and economy were first. I know the North was a racist place and that Lincoln himself was a racist. But the proof is right there in front of you that Slavery was a bigger issue than what you've told yourself or have been told that it is... I mean it's literally in the secession papers they sent to Washington. You can view those papers it's public domain.
"Michael, can you think of any good points about slavery or is it all black as the pit of hell?"
Are you really asking me if I can I think of any good points about slavery of another human being ? No I can't. None at all. And if you CAN then I've got no more time for you.
"Why the sudden rush to end Slavery at the expense of all we held dear?"
Because there were other humans living in enslavement that didn't have those rights of natural and total freedom that we held dear ? It's ironic to say you're for protecting the liberty of slave owners... the very people taking liberty away from other humans. I just can't understand why you as a person who SAYS they love freedom so much could be so easy to defend.... Slavery ? You have to see the irony.
I understand the standpoint people take that the issue of slavery issue was secondary and that tariffs and economy were first. I know the North was a racist place and that Lincoln himself was a racist. But the proof is right there in front of you that Slavery was a bigger issue than what you've told yourself or have been told that it is... I mean it's literally in the secession papers they sent to Washington. You can view those papers it's public domain.
"Michael, can you think of any good points about slavery or is it all black as the pit of hell?"
Are you really asking me if I can I think of any good points about slavery of another human being ? No I can't. None at all. And if you CAN then I've got no more time for you.
T.M.
"then I've got no more time for you…" and there you have it.
